-
Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
1-Is it ethical for a male nurse to give bed bath or shower to a female patient who obviously refuses?
2-Is it ethical for a male nurse to stripped and give bath with his bare hand's even on the female patient's genital's?
3-Is it ethical not to seek permission from the female patient's spouse or family member's regarding male nurse giving bath to them?
4-Had anyone of your wife's,girfriend's or even mother who obviously is a patient been given bed bath or complete shower from a male nurse without your consent or even if against their will?
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
It's never ethical to do anything to anyone against their will regardless of the nurse's gender.
WR,,, three commas for Becca
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
1- no it's not ethical to do anything against someones wishes, male or female.
2- he should have gloves on, but if a male nurse is giving a bath, the genitals should be included.
3- would a female nurse think to ask the families permission prior to giving a bath to a man?
4- yes, my grandmother was taken care of by a male nurse. She spoke very highly of him.
Male or female, a nurse is a nurse.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Female nurses have bathed male patients for years and no one has had a problem with it.
I am a male nurse and have had to bathe female patients and never once had anyone make an issue of it. Further, I did not become a nurse just so I could a see or bathe naked female.
It's time to get over these issue and remember its about patient care, period.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3eyes
1-Is it ethical for a male nurse to give bed bath or shower to a female patient who obviously refuses?
2-Is it ethical for a male nurse to stripped and give bath with his bare hand's even on the female patient's genital's?
3-Is it ethical not to seek permission from the female patient's spouse or family member's regarding male nurse giving bath to them?
4-Had anyone of your wife's,girfriend's or even mother who obviously is a patient been given bed bath or complete shower from a male nurse without your consent or even if against their will?
1- NO, the patient's right to refuse medical/nursing care must be honored.
2- Not exactly, gloves should be worn whenever giving any kind of nursing care. Otherwise, as long as wearing gloves and with professional conduct an RN is an RN.
3- An RN is an RN... no matter the gender. Male RNs are fully capable of providing nursing care with the upmost professional conduct just as a female nurse giving nursing care to a male patient.
4- Again, medical/nursing care should not be given against a patient's wishes.
I, being a Male RN, find the direction of this Thread headed in a path that may be short lived.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3eyes
1-Is it ethical for a male nurse to give bed bath or shower to a female patient who obviously refuses?
2-Is it ethical for a male nurse to stripped and give bath with his bare hand's even on the female patient's genital's?
3-Is it ethical not to seek permission from the female patient's spouse or family member's regarding male nurse giving bath to them?
4-Had anyone of your wife's,girfriend's or even mother who obviously is a patient been given bed bath or complete shower from a male nurse without your consent or even if against their will?
If a patient that is mentally competent refuses treatment whether it be medications, a procedure, or a bath to name a few this person could actually charge someone with assault. When a competent person refuses treatment, no matter what it is, ask questions regarding their reasons behind the refusal and document.
Whenever I have to place a foley on a male or do anything that could have their genitals exposed I always have another person in the room with me. This protects both the patient and myself.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
I see nothing wrong with this but every nurse should wear gloves when doing it. I can't imagine a nurse not wearing gloves when giving a bed bath. Asking for permission is polite and helps avoid conflicts.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
People may be uncomfortable with the idea. If they are not willing to allow it, does anyone think that doesn't matter?
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by toppingu
People may be uncomfortable with the idea. If they are not willing to allow it, does anyone think that doesn't matter?
Please, elaborate...
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
3eyes
1-Is it ethical for a male nurse to give bed bath or shower to a female patient who obviously refuses?
2-Is it ethical for a male nurse to stripped and give bath with his bare hand's even on the female patient's genital's?
3-Is it ethical not to seek permission from the female patient's spouse or family member's regarding male nurse giving bath to them?
4-Had anyone of your wife's,girfriend's or even mother who obviously is a patient been given bed bath or complete shower from a male nurse without your consent or even if against their will?
Moderators please forgive me.
A nurse is a nurse,is a nurse,
universal precautions are a must,
No means No
and how long has it been sence the last bath?
are they a psyc patient?
can they bathe themselves,
is the spouce willing to do it?
what medical reason are they in a place where they need a bed bath.
Obviously lots of unanswered ?'s.
A nurse should always have someone to watch his/her back.
If the spouce is against it but the patient dosen't care then the spouce is the only one with a problem.
And yes my Wife has had a nurse who was a man, no I didn't have a problem with that, but the whole Male Dr. thing? What is he some kind of a freak or somthing?
To make my point clear, under the proper conditions it is appropriat to go against a patients stated wishes, IE: With a Dr's order it would be appropriat to give a bath when one is refused and if the only one available to do it is of an objectionable gender to someone, then you must refer back to the Dr's order.
This is probably as clear as mud by now, about like your question so if you want a clear answer please be a little more specific about the details surrounding your delemma.
Are you a sevearly jealous man, a well meaning son/spouce or just that clueless about why people become Nurses?
If it isn't perverted for a MALE Doctor to do a vaginal exam, or a FEMALE Doctor to check a mans prostate what do people have against a man bathing a woman. I do it all the time. I have been a nurse for quite a while, and I have bathed all ages of both men and Women,from teen to twentysomthing and beyond all the way up to a 106 year old woman the only thing different about these women was the fact that they were different ages, and No my Wife has not got a problem with me doing this. The only thing they have had in common (besides the obvious) is that they needed to have someone do it for them because they could not do it for themselves.
I see a patient and thats what its all about. This notion that men become nurses to get a cheep thrill is preposterous. if they got as far as the N-CLEX exam they were doing it for the proper reasons not the perverted ones.
"And that's all I've got to say about that." (Forest gump)
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
First off, this thread was started over 3 years ago; so I doubt if the OP is around any more (judging by the low post counts).
Secondly, it would be interesting to know more details (is there a cultural/religious reason for the patients' objections? When I read the original post, the syntax doesn't flow like most American English to me). There are some cultural and religious reasons that some nationalities would not allow a male to touch or view a female patient (even male doctors for women in many Middle-Eastern countries).
Third, if the patient says no to a male bathing her and she is unable to do so herself, someone else should bathe her or it would be considered an assault. The family or spouse of the patient shouldn't have a say in this unless she is incompetent, they request it beforehand (such as in the case of a woman who has been sexually assaulted in the past) or that they have healthcare POA.
Fourth, I am a nurse, it doesn't bother me when I bathe a male. It's a PERSON who needs help at that time. *I* don't see that that person as a male or a sexual being; just as a male nurse doesn't see that person (be it male or female) as being a sexual being then either. We are caring for a person who needs our help. I've been very ill at different times in my life and have been cared for by male nurses. From what I remember, their baths have been as asexual as any a female has given me, and there wasn't any sexual undercurrent involved at all, even when I was intubated and cared for by a former co-worker.
I once had a male co-worker who would tell very raunchy jokes to us in the break room all of the time, trying to embarrass us (now-a-days, he'd be hit with a sexual harassment charge right away if he pulled that). He was always very professional on the unit, but his language and jokes in the break room were less than professional. He later became a CRNA, and he was at my daughter's birth. At first I was a bit put off by the fact that *he* was there; but once again he was a perfect professional on the job; and when my daughter ran into problems during the birth(aspirating meconium), I was more than happy *HE* was the anesthetist on call.
There is nothing sexually exciting about Nursing or being a nurse at all. The entertainment media and porn movies may say otherwise, but sickly, sweaty bodies in open-backed hospital gowns smelling vaguely of stale bodily fluids in rooms that have either an antiseptic or uncleaned toilet smell have to be the biggest turn-off there is.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
JennyP, just wanted to say I enjoyed reading your reply. Especially, agreed with your last paragraph. Sometimes, or most of the time, the media does more harm than good regards to PR for the nursing profession.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
To make my point clear, under the proper conditions it is appropriat to go against a patients stated wishes, IE: With a Dr's order it would be appropriat to give a bath when one is refused and if the only one available to do it is of an objectionable gender to someone, then you must refer back to the Dr's order.
So you're saying that if I (male) request to be bathed by a female they can ignore my wishes and bathe me anyway. Any female that tried to bathe me would end up with a black eye.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
clay jensen
So you're saying that if I (male) request to be bathed by a female they can ignore my wishes and bathe me anyway. Any female that tried to bathe me would end up with a black eye.
FYI- assault of a healthcare worker, in addition to never being a good way to get what you want, is a felony. My patient last night who tried to take a swing at me got promptly tased by the friendly police officer at the bedside... I don't suggest ever trying to give your nurse a black eye... :devil_smile:
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AmandaWIRN
FYI- assault of a healthcare worker, in addition to never being a good way to get what you want, is a felony. My patient last night who tried to take a swing at me got promptly tased by the friendly police officer at the bedside... I don't suggest ever trying to give your nurse a black eye... :devil_smile:
A patient has the right to refuse treatment. If, a healthcare worker ignores a patient's right to refuse treatment, then what? BTW, I'm not condoning patient violence onto healthcare workers.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Any female that tried to bathe me would end up with a black eye.
Figure of speech. I'm not a violent person, I just say that to show how seriously I would take it. No disrespect.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
To the junior member who says that female nurses have bathed male patients for years and no one has had a problem with it.”
No one? Of course, by “no one” you mean the nurses. How do you know “no one” has had a problem with it? Have you asked these men if they have a problem with it, or is it just assumed they don’t have a problem with it? Don’t let stereotyped assumptions lead your professional life. Ask.
To the member who wrote “It's never ethical to do anything to anyone against their will regardless of the nurse's gender.”
That’s the right answer. I’m convinced most nurses understand and accept this.
Ask. Ask. Ask. Communicate. Don’t just assume. And don’t assume that attitude of “entitlement” – that is, I’m a nurse and because I’m a “professional” I have access to “bodies” and patients better just get used to it. Several posters have noted that you don’t do anything against the patient’s wishes? How do you know what the patients wishes are? Do you assume that just because they don’t say anything everything’s okay? Don’t assume that. Ask, if you really believe you should honor a patient’s wishers. Patients are often vulnerable, sometimes frightened. Ask.
To the poster who wrote: “Whenever I have to place a foley on a male or do anything that could have their genitals exposed I always have another person in the room with me. This protects both the patient and myself.” Protects the patient? Let’s get real. You’re doing that to protect yourself. Chaperones are supposed to be for patient comfort as much as doctor/nurse protection. And so you use a chaperone/witness that’s being paid by the institution you work for? That’s ethical? And, you’re supposed to ask the patient’s permission to have a chaperone. Do you do that? And, ethically, chaperones are supposed to be the same gender as the patient if the patient wants that. But how do you know all this unless you….yes, ask. There's some interesting research out there about chaperones, and it shows that most men (over 90 percent)do not want chaperones. It varies with women. Some want chaperones with male doctors and nurses, some don't. It varies. The reasearch is out there. Look it up.
To the poster who wrote: “To make my point clear, under the proper conditions it is appropriat to go against a patients stated wishes, IE: With a Dr's order it would be appropriat to give a bath when one is refused and if the only one available to do it is of an objectionable gender to someone, then you must refer back to the Dr's order.”
Obviously you’re not a nurse. If you did what you say above, you’d be guilty of battery. Doctor’s orders don’t trump a patient’s right to refuse treatment. Some patients can be difficult, agreed. But you need to find ways to deal with them. If they become abusive, deal with that firmly.
Having said all that, I’m convinced most professional doctors and nurses understand all this. Most practice it everyday, some better than others.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
clay jensen
Any female that tried to bathe me would end up with a black eye.
Figure of speech. I'm not a violent person, I just say that to show how seriously I would take it. No disrespect.
I thought you were not speaking literally but in retrospect be careful with such talk among strange people, er strangers. ;)
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Murmer
To the junior member who says that female nurses have bathed male patients for years and no one has had a problem with it.”
No one? Of course, by “no one” you mean the nurses. How do you know “no one” has had a problem with it? Have you asked these men if they have a problem with it, or is it just assumed they don’t have a problem with it? Don’t let stereotyped assumptions lead your professional life. Ask.
To the member who wrote “It's never ethical to do anything to anyone against their will regardless of the nurse's gender.”
That’s the right answer. I’m convinced most nurses understand and accept this.
Ask. Ask. Ask. Communicate. Don’t just assume. And don’t assume that attitude of “entitlement” – that is, I’m a nurse and because I’m a “professional” I have access to “bodies” and patients better just get used to it. Several posters have noted that you don’t do anything against the patient’s wishes? How do you know what the patients wishes are? Do you assume that just because they don’t say anything everything’s okay? Don’t assume that. Ask, if you really believe you should honor a patient’s wishers. Patients are often vulnerable, sometimes frightened. Ask.
To the poster who wrote: “Whenever I have to place a foley on a male or do anything that could have their genitals exposed I always have another person in the room with me. This protects both the patient and myself.” Protects the patient? Let’s get real. You’re doing that to protect yourself. Chaperones are supposed to be for patient comfort as much as doctor/nurse protection. And so you use a chaperone/witness that’s being paid by the institution you work for? That’s ethical? And, you’re supposed to ask the patient’s permission to have a chaperone. Do you do that? And, ethically, chaperones are supposed to be the same gender as the patient if the patient wants that. But how do you know all this unless you….yes, ask. There's some interesting research out there about chaperones, and it shows that most men (over 90 percent)do not want chaperones. It varies with women. Some want chaperones with male doctors and nurses, some don't. It varies. The reasearch is out there. Look it up.
To the poster who wrote: “To make my point clear, under the proper conditions it is appropriat to go against a patients stated wishes, IE: With a Dr's order it would be appropriat to give a bath when one is refused and if the only one available to do it is of an objectionable gender to someone, then you must refer back to the Dr's order.”
Obviously you’re not a nurse. If you did what you say above, you’d be guilty of battery. Doctor’s orders don’t trump a patient’s right to refuse treatment. Some patients can be difficult, agreed. But you need to find ways to deal with them. If they become abusive, deal with that firmly.
Having said all that, I’m convinced most professional doctors and nurses understand all this. Most practice it everyday, some better than others.
Excellent reply, IMHO. I look forward to your future post.
http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/2...2bnurse4ms.jpg
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Flip the tables. Female nurses have to bath males and it at times is more socially acceptable. But with more men coming into nursing that is going to change. Just because you have a penis doesn't mean you get out of bathing your female patients!:)
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Thanks for the replies. Bleucloud -- I'm not talking about "getting out" of anything. I'm talking about being more sensative to gender. There seems to be an attitude within healthcare that gender doesn't matter when it comes to patient intimate care. The research doesn't back that up. Gender does matter, quite often to the patient, sometimes to the caregiver. It's a topic that needs to be upfront and open, a topic that caregivers need to discuss with their patients. That communication alone may help many patients feel more comfortable about opposite gender care and turn mere silent, embarrassed compliance into positive cooperation.
I'm also curious as a scholar about these "socially acceptable" activities; that is, why is it more socially acceptable for female nurses to do intimate care on males and not vice a versa? And who gets to define what's socially acceptable and what isn't -- the hospital culture, the nurse, the doctor, or, the patient?
The fact is that there's not much research out there about patient attitudes toward modesty, especially research dealing with men. And it is a fact that hospitals just don't ask patients, as a general rule, about their values about modesty and opposite gender care. They don't ask for many reasons. In some cases they're just busy; sometimes they don't think it's an issue. But I have more confidence in the intelligence of hospital personnel. They know this is an issue, and most of them deal with it every day in very professional ways. But often they don't ask because they don't want an answer because they know what the answer will be and they can't accommodate, especially with men.
You're right, with more male nurses entering the profession things may change. But, as you know, the studies show that a significant number of males don't last in nursing, and many if not most of the ones that do move up into admin or teaching.
I've always wondered why nursing hasn't been "desegrated" offically. Why are there not quotas and incentives for men to enter nursing? Why isn't there affirmative action? Nursing as a femenine occupation is a 19th century Victorian construct. The idea that gender doesn't matter with intimate care seems to have embedded itself in our culture beginning in the 1960's as the women's movement progressed and more women became doctors and entered other professions. Attitudes are starting to change as we realize how important gender differences are in intimate situations like the one's we're talking about.
But like teaching, nursing has in recent history been a female occupation and thus the salaries have not been real competative, and the respect hasn't been there. There are many parallels between nursing and teaching. Those were the two major respectable occupations available to women, and if that's all that was really open to them, a significant number of early women's right's leaders were adament that those would be strictly female professions. No men. Did you know that from about WW1 to the Korean War the nurses unions fought to keep men out?
Sorry to get off topic. I find these fascinating topics from a historical/psychological/sociological point of view.
And lest you read too much into my text, I think nursing is one of the most essential, important professions on earth and have great respect for the men and women who do this job. As with any professions,though, I think there needs to be a better balance between men and women in nursing. What happens with narrown minded "boy's clubs" can also happen to narrow minded "girl's clubs."
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bleucloud
Flip the tables. Female nurses have to bath males and it at times is more socially acceptable. But with more men coming into nursing that is going to change. Just because you have a penis doesn't mean you get out of bathing your female patients!:)
LOL, last I heard the percentages of male RN's are only 7% of the RN workforce [civilian side of the house]. Nonetheless, it should not be a matter of what is "socially acceptable". It SHOULD be what is professionally acceptable, which I agree the male RN's should give female patients a bath. EVERYTIME I've given patient care to a female patient it is done professionally. OMG, I see nothing whatsoever being intimate [in a sexual manner] regards to patient care.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
SoldierNurse:
Your distinction between the socially acceptable and the professionally acceptable is interesting. I'm not sure what you mean, but here's how I read it.
The social sphere involveds what may or may not be acceptable to individual patients in a culture of society. This sphere recognizes that there may be differences in how people respond to intimate care. This sphere also recognizes individual atonomy in this area.
The professional sphere refers specifically to a profession, i.e. the medical profession. The patient really has no say in this sphere. If the profession says it's acceptable for opposite genders to do intimate care, then it's okay, regardless of how the patient feels. I must say that this attitude is too common within our healthcare culture. And when you enter a hospital, you do enter a unique culture, an institutuional culture that looks inward toward what's best for itself, inward to what will preserve it's existance, inward to it's own feelings.
Secondly, it isn't a question of whether this activity has any sexual connotations for the nurse. Who knows? We can't get into people's heads. I hope we can assume the professionalism of medical people and that, even if they do occasionally have these feelings, they can control them. But to make an out right statement that there are never any sexual feelings involved is to completely erase the sexual nature of who we are as human beings. That doesn't make sense. We have a sexual nature and we don't drop that -- nurse or patient -- when we enter a hospital.
Thirdly, too many medical people look inward at how they feel and not outward enough about how the patient feels. Just because you do this kind of work all the time and it's routine for you, doesn't make it routine for the patient. Just because you've gained controled over your feelings with expereince, that doesn't mean the patient, who may have had little hospital experiences, has control over his or her feelings. Just because gender doesn't matter to you, that doesn't mean it doesn't matter to the patient. Really, this isn't about you. It's about the patient and the patients feelings, comfort and emotional health.
I'm sure you're a wonderful nurse and most patietns of both genders are comfortable around you. But your notion of what's "professional acceptable" doesn't sit well with me, unless I'm reading your thoughts wrong. If I am, please correct me.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Murmer
SoldierNurse:
Your distinction between the socially acceptable and the professionally acceptable is interesting. I'm not sure what you mean, but here's how I read it.
The social sphere involveds what may or may not be acceptable to individual patients in a culture of society. This sphere recognizes that there may be differences in how people respond to intimate care. This sphere also recognizes individual atonomy in this area.
The professional sphere refers specifically to a profession, i.e. the medical profession. The patient really has no say in this sphere. If the profession says it's acceptable for opposite genders to do intimate care, then it's okay, regardless of how the patient feels. I must say that this attitude is too common within our healthcare culture. And when you enter a hospital, you do enter a unique culture, an institutuional culture that looks inward toward what's best for itself, inward to what will preserve it's existance, inward to it's own feelings.
Secondly, it isn't a question of whether this activity has any sexual connotations for the nurse. Who knows? We can't get into people's heads. I hope we can assume the professionalism of medical people and that, even if they do occasionally have these feelings, they can control them. But to make an out right statement that there are never any sexual feelings involved is to completely erase the sexual nature of who we are as human beings. That doesn't make sense. We have a sexual nature and we don't drop that -- nurse or patient -- when we enter a hospital.
Thirdly, too many medical people look inward at how they feel and not outward enough about how the patient feels. Just because you do this kind of work all the time and it's routine for you, doesn't make it routine for the patient. Just because you've gained controled over your feelings with expereince, that doesn't mean the patient, who may have had little hospital experiences, has control over his or her feelings. Just because gender doesn't matter to you, that doesn't mean it doesn't matter to the patient. Really, this isn't about you. It's about the patient and the patients feelings, comfort and emotional health.
I'm sure you're a wonderful nurse and most patietns of both genders are comfortable around you. But your notion of what's "professional acceptable" doesn't sit well with me, unless I'm reading your thoughts wrong. If I am, please correct me.
Murmur, I looked at your Ultimate Nurse profile and it is empty. You replied to my post not by my Ultimate Nurse username but by my first name. Please, only reply to my username... if, at all.
Honestly, it does not matter to me what does & what does not "sit well" with you. I would like to use these various public nursing forums as a source of BOTH social & professional enjoyment.
I don't have to spend an extrenous amount of time with granting you some grand explanation. However, I will briefly reiterate here... to clarify my good name, and not to satisfy or pacify you. Again, these public forums are not meant to be personal.
IMHO, a patient has the RIGHT to refuse any type of health care. Therefore, if not a life saving event ... a patient can request [or demand if that sits with you better] to have the same gender nurse perform the bed bath. Yet, IMHO it should be professionally acceptable [WITH PATIENT'S CONSENT] for a male nurse to give a bed bath to a female patient just as it should be professionally acceptable for a female nurse to give a bed bath to a male patient.
Again, I NEVER EVEN SUGGESTED GENDER DID NOT MATTER TO ME in the arena of health care regards to privacy issues. Plus, I NEVER SUGGESTED THIS IS ABOUT ME. I've always been a firm believer that the patient should be empowered to make the primary decisions in their heath care issues.
Last, I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO INFORM YOU THAT I NEVER HAVE SEXUAL FEELINGS TOWARDS MY PATIENTS. For you to post otherwise is completely w/o merit.
Obviously, your reply has angered me greatly. I find it best to end my reply here.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Hello, all. In case you haven't done the research, nursing WAS done by males, esp. during the Middle Ages. Only in the past 100 years or so, has it been a 'female' job. I seem to remember the stigma attached to nursing, too. Remember Sary Gamp? If not, look it up.
I often get the comment of 'Is it my wife talking, or the nurse?' from my husband, and my comeback is 'You can't split the two anymore.'
Patients DO need baths, I agree. I often have patients wash as much as they can, and then I 'do the rest'. IF there is a problem, it gets charted, and it gets 'bumped up the food chain', careplanned, etc.
Also, please look at the date of the original Post....2005. Original poster has not been back, either. Mind you, this is a good thread, but let's not get too nuts. I have seldom locked a thread, and I don't wanna start right now.
Enough said.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cougarnurse
Hello, all. In case you haven't done the research, nursing WAS done by males, esp. during the Middle Ages. Only in the past 100 years or so, has it been a 'female' job. I seem to remember the stigma attached to nursing, too. Remember Sary Gamp? If not, look it up.
I often get the comment of 'Is it my wife talking, or the nurse?' from my husband, and my comeback is 'You can't split the two anymore.'
Patients DO need baths, I agree. I often have patients wash as much as they can, and then I 'do the rest'. IF there is a problem, it gets charted, and it gets 'bumped up the food chain', careplanned, etc.
Also, please look at the date of the original Post....2005. Original poster has not been back, either. Mind you, this is a good thread, but let's not get too nuts. I have seldom locked a thread, and I don't wanna start right now.
Enough said.
http://allnursesunite.com/forum/imag...ooHooBravo.gif
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Soldier Nurse:
I don't want to get into an argument with you. I'm sure you're a great nurse. I'm not implying anything about you personally. But I stand by what I said about our human sexual natures. We don't leave them at the hospital door. It's naive to think we do.
Also, do you realize that what appears to be your real name is listed at the end of your posts on this blog? That's why I used your name. It's not as though it is hidden. It's right there after your post. If you don't want it there, remove it.
And I agree with you comletely, that it should be professionally acceptable if the patient consents to any kind of opposite gender care. But, frankly, I don't know why we're using the world "should." It's my understanding that it pretty much is (with very few exceptions) the case in American healthcare. I'm just concerned with not just "consent," but true "informed consent." Just because someone complies with intimate care doesn't always mean there has been actualy informed consent and agreement. Patients are sometimes vulnerable, naked, frightened and feel powerless. They will sometimes just let anything be done to them whether they agree or not. I'm not convinced that good communication always happens. That's what I'm saying.
But, getting back to the original question on this thread about whether a male nurse should bathe a famale patient. I agree with you. It should be professionally acceptable if the patient consents, really consents. And vice a versa with female nurses bathing male patients.
This is a sensative topic. There needs to be more communication about this between doctors/nurses and patients. It shouldn't be hidden in blogs like this. It should be on the websites of the major hospitals, and on the websites of clinics. Patients shouldn't have to wait until they get into the hospital bed before these subjects are discussed and confronted.
Blogs are not alwasy the best way for people to communicate. It's difficult sometimes to get across subtle ideas without facial expressions, vocal tone and body language. If I offended you, I do apologize. It wasn't my intent. I have great respect for the work you and other nurses do. But let's communicate; let's talk about these issues.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Murmer
Soldier Nurse:
I don't want to get into an argument with you. I'm sure you're a great nurse. I'm not implying anything about you personally. But I stand by what I said about our human sexual natures. We don't leave them at the hospital door. It's naive to think we do.
Also, do you realize that what appears to be your real name is listed at the end of your posts on this blog? That's why I used your name. It's not as though it is hidden. It's right there after your post. If you don't want it there, remove it.
And I agree with you comletely, that it should be professionally acceptable if the patient consents to any kind of opposite gender care. But, frankly, I don't know why we're using the world "should." It's my understanding that it pretty much is (with very few exceptions) the case in American healthcare. I'm just concerned with not just "consent," but true "informed consent." Just because someone complies with intimate care doesn't always mean there has been actualy informed consent and agreement. Patients are sometimes vulnerable, naked, frightened and feel powerless. They will sometimes just let anything be done to them whether they agree or not. I'm not convinced that good communication always happens. That's what I'm saying.
But, getting back to the original question on this thread about whether a male nurse should bathe a famale patient. I agree with you. It should be professionally acceptable if the patient consents, really consents. And vice a versa with female nurses bathing male patients.
This is a sensative topic. There needs to be more communication about this between doctors/nurses and patients. It shouldn't be hidden in blogs like this. It should be on the websites of the major hospitals, and on the websites of clinics. Patients shouldn't have to wait until they get into the hospital bed before these subjects are discussed and confronted.
Blogs are not alwasy the best way for people to communicate. It's difficult sometimes to get across subtle ideas without facial expressions, vocal tone and body language. If I offended you, I do apologize. It wasn't my intent. I have great respect for the work you and other nurses do. But let's communicate; let's talk about these issues.
http://www.ultimatenurse.com/forum/i...cons/icon4.gif
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Murmer
Soldier Nurse:
But I stand by what I said about our human sexual natures. We don't leave them at the hospital door. It's naive to think we do.
I do, and I'm pretty far from naive.
Work is work- it's my career, my job, call it what you want, but there's nothing sexual about it. If someone cannot leave their sexual nature at the door, then I would suggest they find a different field to work in.
I go to work to save lives, not to check out guys.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AmandaWIRN
I do, and I'm pretty far from naive.
Work is work- it's my career, my job, call it what you want, but there's nothing sexual about it. If someone cannot leave their sexual nature at the door, then I would suggest they find a different field to work in.
I go to work to save lives, not to check out guys.
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9736/iagreeww9.gif
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Here we are, back at the ageless bedbath issue except now we have the situation in reverse and it's become quite serious. I've been thinking about this thread and of course, being the verbose one that I am, need to share what's going through my head so, here goes.
Years ago, long before frivolous lawsuits and epidemic preoccupation with graphic sexuality, there was some humor to be found in in this situation. Of course there were sexual undertones but for some reason, we just laughed it off. I'm not suggesting that laughing about it will solve the seemingly arduous process of should the man bathe the woman but it may help put things in perspective.
There are still men and women and there is still sex going on but our social structure is quite different than it was years ago so we need to look at it again. Back to the bedbath. Let's see, hygeine, very important, yes? Person A is dirty and person B is there to help. Person A needs the help and Person B is willing to offer. I know it's oversimplified but that's really the where we are. Factor in our ethnicity, experience, individual morals and values around sexuality and sensuality and we intensify that very simple model. Now add the power dynamic of the nurse-patient relationship but with the sexrole reversal and we have that supercharged issue that we started with. Okay, but how do we handle it? In my opinion, we go back and oversimplify it again. A bedbath is a bedbath and nothing more or at least that's all it should be. I think that if we approach this simple, basic process in a subdued, professional, matter of fact way but keeping very aware of all forms of communication signals, the bedbath won't be a problem. There will always be exceptions but they will be few and far between.
I've been bathing female patients of all ages for years and can't remember ever having a problem. On occasion, it has been requested that a female do the bathing or toileting instead of me but I don't view that as a problem but rather a request that I should if possible, honor. Likewise, my female colleagues have approached me for help with their male patients who have requested a male to attend to them. This doesn't have to be problem oriented at all. We're looking at preferences that our patients have and if we advocate for our patients and look out for their needs, we should accommodate whenever possible and not take being refused because of our sex as a personal offense.
R
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricu
Here we are, back at the ageless bedbath issue except now we have the situation in reverse and it's become quite serious. I've been thinking about this thread and of course, being the verbose one that I am, need to share what's going through my head so, here goes.
Years ago, long before frivolous lawsuits and epidemic preoccupation with graphic sexuality, there was some humor to be found in in this situation. Of course there were sexual undertones but for some reason, we just laughed it off. I'm not suggesting that laughing about it will solve the seemingly arduous process of should the man bathe the woman but it may help put things in perspective.
There are still men and women and there is still sex going on but our social structure is quite different than it was years ago so we need to look at it again. Back to the bedbath. Let's see, hygeine, very important, yes? Person A is dirty and person B is there to help. Person A needs the help and Person B is willing to offer. I know it's oversimplified but that's really the where we are. Factor in our ethnicity, experience, individual morals and values around sexuality and sensuality and we intensify that very simple model. Now add the power dynamic of the nurse-patient relationship but with the sexrole reversal and we have that supercharged issue that we started with. Okay, but how do we handle it? In my opinion, we go back and oversimplify it again. A bedbath is a bedbath and nothing more or at least that's all it should be. I think that if we approach this simple, basic process in a subdued, professional, matter of fact way but keeping very aware of all forms of communication signals, the bedbath won't be a problem. There will always be exceptions but they will be few and far between.
I've been bathing female patients of all ages for years and can't remember ever having a problem. On occasion, it has been requested that a female do the bathing or toileting instead of me but I don't view that as a problem but rather a request that I should if possible, honor. Likewise, my female colleagues have approached me for help with their male patients who have requested a male to attend to them. This doesn't have to be problem oriented at all. We're looking at preferences that our patients have and if we advocate for our patients and look out for their needs, we should accommodate whenever possible and not take being refused because of our sex as a personal offense.
R
http://www.ultimatenurse.com/forum/i...ons/icon14.gif
Excellent post, IMHO.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
I agree. Excellent last post. So I think I'll leave it at that.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Here is a link to cultural beliefs i thought you all would be interested in: http://www.ultimatenurse.com/forum/f...563/#post62867
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
I am not in the medical profession, but have been by my wife's side for 9 major operations and 1 outpatient knee surgery. I am her advocate because 1)anything the doctor/nurse staff says/does is gospel to her; 2)is afraid of insulting a doctor by questioning their judgement; 3)what I have experienced myself with hospital stays makes me suspect anybody who enters the room: doctor or doctor wanna-be, nurse or nurse underling.
Doctors are like mechanics, they try this or that. If that doesn't work, after paying for the first try, I'll try something else. Nurses, real nurses, are worth their weight in gold, but they are a dying breed. Their replacements are not the same, many times lack common sense, don't have a real grasp of the human body mechanics, and doubt they have a real grasp of life itself. Male or female, if you can't change your own oil or tire, you can't be a good nurse.
To stick to the topic, male nurses attending female patients, is where I DO have problem, as I do with female nurses with male patients. I would refuse a female bathing me or inserting/removing a catheter. I start with a situation that happened to me being prepped for an angiogram at Hartford Hospital in Aug, 2006. A female nurse was shaving my left leg/groin with only a towel over my genitals. I was talking to her and the others as they arranged for the procedure and noticed that she purposely bumped up against my penis 3 or 4 times while shaving me. Because of the whole whirlwind atmosphere I didn't pay attention to this nor say anything. It was later that I thought about this and how it happened in the open with others in the OR but without any other person near the table.
If this can happen to a male in the open, what about a female patient alone in a room with a male nurse or doctor? What about the time the unconscious female is being wheeled back to her room? My wife had a bad fall and required a hospital stay for observation. The PA asked if they had done a rectal exam in the ER upon arrival (spinal injury) which they had done, but didn't mark it on the chart. The PA (for the doctor), a male, insisted that he do another, which he did, without anyone else in the room. I objected to this later, but he just looked at me like I didn't matter. She later had lamnioplasty and I was in the room as much a they would let me. Usually from 6 am to 10/11 pm. I watched and listened to everything. When she returned from surgery about 9pm she had the "air-bags" on her legs but no pump. When I finally had to leave at midnight, I asked where the pump was. The staff didn't seem to concerned about it, but I insisted they get one or call a supervisor. They then went to another floor to find one. I caught several times forgetting doses of pain meds. My wife, in her stupor from the pain, wouldn't have said anything. Her reply was, "oh their busy, they just forgot."
It is because of such arrogance that I don't trust any medical personnel for anything, doing things just to cover their butts (thanks to lawyers like Al Gore) and those that think they know it all. I have chosen to refuse, if able, any medical help. If I am conscious, I will not let anyone touch me. If unconscious, I have given my wife permisson to deny me any medical help. I'd rather die of my injury/medical problem than have procedures done to me that would embarrass me. My biggest fear is a foley catheter by a female who doesn't have the same plumbing as I do and that may be pissed off at men because of past life experiences.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Attitude like this make our jobs as nurses 10 times more difficult.....
If you have such disdain and dislike of healthcare professionals, why are you choosing to come to a site made for and by nurses??? I'm sure you could find a conspiracy theorist, medicine-hating forum to post on somewhere....
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Amanda:
I can understand your frustration with such a response as appears above, but is that the best way to deal with it? Send them away? I don't think we're dealing with hatred of the profession as much as a lack of trust. The kinds of experiences he describes happen. Not all the time. But unfortunately more often that they should. I just talked with a couple recently who went through a horrible experience at a hosptial when one of them had surgery. I was surprised at the emotion they felt and how much lack of trust resulted.
I don't think a blog like this can restore the kind of trust that was lost in the man's description above, but to regard it as simply hatred toward the medical profession is, I think, simplistic. People like that man do exist in this world, and they will need medical help. Do we just let them die, or do we try to communicate with them, open up avenues of trust, try to regain what is lost.
Sorry, but I was really disappointed to read your reply.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Sure, there are a select few in nursing that might be better suited in another profession. However, the same can be said for any profession you think of.
For instance, just because you hate one president's policy, do you hate the presidency? Just because one mother on the news beat her kid, do you hate all mothers?
There exists a balance between good and bad in all things in nature. In anything you observe, you will find a negative and a positive. Would you even be able to appreciate a good nurse without having experienced a bad one, or would your opinion of them not be as high, were you to experience the good nurse in the first place and never the latter?
Without night, could we appreciate day?
Please do not judge the merits of a profession by the actions of a few.
There are some good nurses out there you know.
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Murmer
Amanda:
I can understand your frustration with such a response as appears above, but is that the best way to deal with it? Send them away? I don't think we're dealing with hatred of the profession as much as a lack of trust. The kinds of experiences he describes happen. Not all the time. But unfortunately more often that they should. I just talked with a couple recently who went through a horrible experience at a hosptial when one of them had surgery. I was surprised at the emotion they felt and how much lack of trust resulted.
I don't think a blog like this can restore the kind of trust that was lost in the man's description above, but to regard it as simply hatred toward the medical profession is, I think, simplistic. People like that man do exist in this world, and they will need medical help. Do we just let them die, or do we try to communicate with them, open up avenues of trust, try to regain what is lost.
Sorry, but I was really disappointed to read your reply.
I appreciated Amanda's reply. This website (not blog, LOL) is for healthcare professionals and NOT haters of same.
:p
-
Re: Male nurse giving bed bath to a female patient.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Murmer
People like that man do exist in this world, and they will need medical help. Do we just let them die, or do we try to communicate with them, open up avenues of trust, try to regain what is lost.
Sorry, but I was really disappointed to read your reply.
He said himself he would rather die than seek medical help....